The Whole is Greater than the Sum of its Parts

Rethink Trust 2018: Christopher Ferris, The Whole is Greater than the Sum of its Parts

Recording: Rethink Trust 2018: Christopher Ferris, The Whole is Greater than the Sum of its Parts

morning everybody thanks for coming mm-hmm Alexi said my name is Chris Faris I'm an IBM distinguished engineer and I'm CTO for open technology this means that I have basically over all technical responsibility for all of the open source and open standards work that we do at IBM and I I've been around I've done a few things and most recently I got involved in in blockchain and I'm going to tell a little bit of a story about how how that came to pass but essentially this is a part of my overall function and it's actually the part that I tend to enjoy the most so let's get into it so let's just make sort of a statement that says that it you know two two and a half three years ago people had been sort of analyzing understanding this new technology blockchain that underpinned Bitcoin and etherium and they looked at the underlying technology and they said wow this is kind of important this is kind of powerful if we can apply this particular technology and apply the notion of shared trusted secure information across even the most you know the fiercest competitors what can we do with that to actually transform the way that industry and business works and so people started to take a look at how would we apply this blockchain technology to finance to healthcare supply chain IOT and so forth and so I BM was one of the first companies to sort of latch on to this idea that this technology could be as powerful as any other that had come before when it comes to transforming the enterprise and IBM is obviously sort of very focused on enterprise consumers and our customers and so we started doing some experimentation some investigation into this underlying technology and we started to explore so maybe we should get involved in some of these communities right and we had some people in IBM research that we're actually actively looking at the technology itself and saying well we could write one of these we could do an implementation and this is where I got involved as being CTO for open technology I caught wind of this activity and I said look guys if IBM is going to come out with IBM blockchain and it's only an IBM thing it's never gonna succeed right it's going to be a big huge flop because why would anybody trust an only IBM thing right it's no different than trying to get everybody to use db2 or WebSphere it's not going to happen this is a technology that by its very definition requires that it be adopted by everybody and we're not going to all adopt that IBM technology any more than we would all adopt a Microsoft or an Oracle or anybody else's technology and so so there's a huge potential behind this but I was advocating inside IBM but it's only going to be successful if it's truly open has to be open has to be developed under open governance it cannot be controlled by any one vendor any one company any one individual so as I mentioned you know we started exploring this and we did look around and we actually investigated the potential of well let's just sort of partner up with the guys at aetherium but the guys had aetherium and the etherium foundation at the time were really very focused on what I would call sort of crypto anarchists right you know there that they had no interest whatsoever in in solving problems for the enterprise right they are you know they were focused on permissionless blockchain anonymous transactions and so forth and so we we started sort of say well okay so we we probably should take this out deliver some technology into an open-source community and we have to solve a lot of problems here right and the best way to do that is to engage others in the community other vendors other individuals scientists researchers to solve problems of how do we solve the problem of limited throughput right you think about Bitcoin think about a theorem and the transaction rates that you can achieve with those two technologies right seven to ten transactions a second for Bitcoin yes there's active work and trying to figure out how do we push the envelope on that right but those solutions are still focused on being public permissionless and so forth latency latency - confirmation right you think about using it you know using the crypto currency using mortein technology to do retail sales and so you'd go in with your wallet and you pay for your item and then they say go wait in the corner for two hours while the settlement and while the transaction settles right you can't leave the store because we're not sure of whether or not you really paid for it yet no that's not gonna work anonymity right when we talk to consumers enterprise consumers potential enterprise consumers of blockchain technology the anonymity aspects didn't work for them you talk about banks and securities firms and they have strict no your customer regulation requirements you have to understand who your consumer who your customer is and you have to collect all kinds of information on them make sure that they're not terrorists that are doing money laundering or something like that right so anonymity doesn't work for them you need to understand who your customer is so you can't just have an account number you have to understand who's behind that account privacy so yes you know you take a look at their permissionless public block chains and everything's anonymous and so therefore everybody you can't really tell who's doing what to whom but you can analyze patterns and you can see all the data right is all right out there in the open and the reality is in business while we do want to be able to start and start building out trust using this technology we still need to have privacy right you know if you're a securities firm and you're starting to make moves in the market you don't want your competitors to see which for which securities you're purchasing because they'll just get in front of you and insert arbitrage seeing that that security and make you pay more and while they're making money off your your trades so privacy is is really fundamentally important in many regards if I'm doing supply chain if I'm doing supply chain kind of solution I don't necessarily want all of the members of that supply chain to understand that I'm giving you a special deal on those widgets right that's something between you and I and I don't want everybody else to know otherwise everybody else is gonna want in on that deal right so privacy is is important so then we have the question of well how do we achieve that right the other part of bringing blockchain technology to the enterprise was the cryptocurrency aspect most of those public permission blockchain technologies required a cryptocurrency and required some form of mining to do consent to have to to engineer consensus and that scares the bejesus out of a lot of enterprise customers they just didn't want to think about the prospect of you know in the etherium context for instance having their their share of ether hacked and taken away from them that prevented them from running their smart contracts that's that's not that's not something that any seaso is going to be willing to sort of live with no finality we talked about the latency but then there's a whole aspect of ok so I let's say I'm using this in the context of securities trades and then somebody decides you know what we're gonna fork the network because we didn't like the fact that this trade happened over here we're just gonna vote it off the island right that's not something that's realistic from an enterprise perspective there has to be finality and then finally there was the governance aspect of things and you take a look at the issues that the technical community and in Bitcoin are having and just trying to figure out how do we how do we increase the block size so that we can get transactions to process more quickly and they can't they can't make a change a technical change because there's too much pent up demand for the because it's going to affect the the value of Bitcoin and there's too many miners with all this Bitcoin that are gonna no you're not changing that so the governance was really a problem it hadn't really been thought through initially but I think the intention again for the permissionless blockchains had been we don't want no stinkin governance but I think that's so our challenge oh no this isn't our challenge this is that's somebody else's challenge to go boldly where no man has gone before no our challenge our challenge was to achieve consensus at scale right at the same sort of scale that we have with public permission blockchains with high transaction throughput to satisfy enterprise type requirements I mean you think about seven transactions a second that's not I mean if you're doing any kind of enterprise IT at all how many transactions per second are you going to need thousands of transactions per second with sufficiency sufficiently low latency right so you need to be able to do these transactions and they need to they need to be committed in a reasonably short period of time right to meet those enterprise needs and how do you do that with privacy right how do you engineer privacy and all of that without sort of having the whole house of cards fall down upon you right so we have an awful lot of technical challenges that we have to solve and the only way that we can really do that effectively I think is to do it together so I used to work at Sun Microsystems as I said in the and the intro and I used to work with a guy called Bill joy who was the chief scientist over at Sun Microsystems at the time you know many people can sort of thank him for all of his technology innovations but this is the one sort of aspect of Bill that I take away and that is no matter who you are no matter how big your company is no matter how many smart people you employ in your big company most of the smartest people work for somebody else so with that in mind is any one party going to be able to sort of I'm gonna I'm gonna disrupt all y'all right I'm gonna deliver you know solution on all this blockchain stuff all by myself now that's not realistic right so we wanted to sort of take this technology take those challenges to the open community and help to create an environment where we could solve those problems together right and this is how the hyper ledger foundation was established I as I mentioned I was talking with the researchers and so forth and IBM saying we need to make this open source and they said okay go do that so I called up my good friend Jim's Emlyn at the Linux Foundation he's the executive director at the Linux Foundation I said hey Jim I got this idea for starting up a blockchain project at the Lynx Foundation and I started to give him my pitch about you know what blockchain was and why it was important and how it related to the enterprise and so forth and he just started laughing I'm like Jim friends what you're laughing at me what's the deal he goes no no Chris Chris you don't understand he says you're about the eighth person that's come to me and proposed to have a blockchain project at the Linux Foundation and I said oh crap and I said so okay so he says but yours is the first proposal that makes any sense he says a lot of those other ones are people first people would come in and they wouldn't even tell me who they were because they wanted to be anonymous right you know and then it's like some of these people I certainly was not going to trust right but you I know you I trust IBM I understand IBM's sort of commitment to open technology open source and he says this makes tons of sense let's go do this and so this is how the I provide your Foundation Board for those who doesn't know what Linux is all right everybody knows what makes this right so nobody's right in there good right so you probably heard the Linux Foundation Linux Foundation does more than just the Linux kernel though right there's actually over 60 what we call collaborative projects at the Lynx Foundation and hyper ledger is one of the more recent ones our goals our goals are pretty straightforward right our objective is to create open source technology around blockchain and distributed ledger technologies for business right this is not developing the next ICO this is not about developing some new cryptocurrency this is about developing blockchain technology for the enterprise to you know essentially help enable and foster open infrastructures pluggable modular component eyes to build out technical communities around that technology right through meetups and various other conference engagements and so forth educating the public about what we're doing in hyper ledger and then promoting those communities in then use such as this one here our leadership well aside from that ugly guy in the middle we have brian behlendorf who's been around the block for a few times Brian was one of the original committers of the Apache HTTP server he helped to found the Apache foundation he worked at Mozilla for a while he worked at the World Economic Forum he was in venture capital at the time that we established hyper ledger and he came to one of our early what we have would call them hackfest this is where we get the members of the hyper ledger technical community together and and he showed up and he says it was funny he was just telling this story last night and I thought it was really a pretty good one he said so he shows up and he says it kind of felt like you know the 45 year old who shows up at the skate park with the board and brand new knee pads that aren't scuffed up and everything and he's looking around at all these kids running around doing backflips and stuff on their skateboards and he says here hold my beer I'm gonna show you how it's done and I felt good about that because I was 59 when I started the hyper foundation and so being told I would look like it was 45 felt good but anyway so Brian is our executive director he's been fantastic the board chair for Hyper ledger is Blythe masters does everybody know Blythe masters is have we heard of her before some people have she's a pretty big deal in Wall Street she actually was the one who who created the credit default swap so we can we can thank you for that no but she's really she's really quite brilliant and she's really quite a powerhouse and so she's got a startup called digital asset Holdings that's working on blockchain technology and she was one of the early partners with IBM so she's been really fantastic as our board chair and then we have dan o pray from also from digital assets and hannah Zuko's anybody know Hannah from intellect EU some people do good she's fantastic she's fantastic and then there's that idiot in the middle who is the chair of the techno steering committee and that would be me we have a very diverse membership so this is not just a vendor play right we have technology vendors like IBM and fujitsu and hitachi we have an Intel ASAP we have securities firms like JPMorgan we have Amex we have supply chain represented by likes of air box air bus rather sorry we have healthcare represented by a company called change healthcare they actually process like one third of all the insurance claim in the country in the United States I had no idea who they were this is important they're using the technology we're developing in hyper ledger to process those claims Cisco we have game ler right Deutsche Bank trade shift for supply chain integration I mean it's it's really and and and then we have two companies from from China in our in our premier membership Baidu and Wanda so you know again this is a really a very diverse set of leaders in this community that have sort of helped to drive this to become the fastest growing project ever at the Linux Foundation now Linux the Linux kernel itself is huge we're not that big yet but in terms of the growth spurt right in terms of the initial expansion nothing at the links foundation has ever grown as quickly so we're in just a little over two years now a little almost two and a half years we've grown to over two hundred and sixty members there are now ten projects under either incubation or active projects at the Linux at the hyper ledger we've had two projects go through production releases and in fact I'm in the process right now of helping to cut the third production release of hyper ledger fabric hopefully it'll be Tuesday it was supposed to be today but we ran into a slight glitch we have to do another couple of days worth of testing three and a half million lines of code all right and you know the actual number of lines of code that have been contributed and rewritten and removed and so forth is well over five million it's really pretty impressive 44,000 commits there's an awful lot of activity going on in all these projects is what I'm really trying to tell you there are over 500 engineers working on the ten projects that we have going at hyper ledger right now I know that there is a little bit of a myth some people have been sort of trying to give you the impression that hyper ledger equal legal IBM no no IBM's maybe 20% now that's a lot but it's it's not all IBM it's mostly others we've had a hundred thousand people sign up and enroll for our our first sort of education course something we call a MOOC massively online open source course something like that I think it stands for and almost a little bit over four thousand people have completed that course thus far it takes about four weeks to complete so it's not like people are dropping out it just means you have to you have to invest a bit of time to actually get through the course and then there's a whole community and ecosystem engagement aspect of things right so we have Brian and myself and others in the community going out speaking at conferences speaking at meetups we just had a meet-up last night hosted by a B and M row engaging the broader community trying to get others that are working on some of these technology innovations around blockchain to come and join us in hyper ledger bring their project to hyper ledger because it's it's that it building out this community where we can build off of each other's innovations that we're really going to see the greatest amount of technical innovation everything we do is also open so I host technical steering committee every week Thursdays ten o'clock Eastern Time in the US it's open to everybody the calls are recorded so if you can't make the call you can always listen in and hear what went on and we published the minutes in addition to the the audio recordings all the presentations and so forth that are made are all open anybody is welcome to come and participate you don't have to be a member everybody is welcome because it's open source they think about the ecosystem that this project this this this collection of projects I should say has been able to grow you know we're over sixty different companies now part of this sort of broad ecosystem of delivering some aspect of the hyper ledger technology to their consumers right some of them are delivering block teams as a service like IBM and Microsoft it's not even on this list but they've got an offering Amazon's got an offering right Oracle and then you've got a number of smaller companies that are delivering either solutions for their clients number of global ISV solution and providers you know the Accenture is the Deloitte's Ernst and Young and so forth all working on delivering various aspects of this and we've done this in just just over two years it's really fin it's phenomenal so I wanted to take a little bit of a brief note so you know again so this is all cool this is wonderful we're building out this vibrant community this vibrant ecosystem what are people doing with it so back in 2016 when we were starting all of this yet every CTO and the world had their hair on fire saying oh my god I have to do blockchain right and and they were doing this because their CEO was saying I want you to out-innovate everybody else and we're gonna disrupt all y'all that's what they say in the South we're gonna disrupt you and all of our competitors and we're gonna beat them with some blockchain thing something something something right that's their business models right so we've done you know iBM has done a zillion proof of concepts discussions with customers that all came with that same sort of notion of I need you to help me understand blockchain because then I'm going to Oh up something Topsy secretiy and we're gonna disrupt the whole healthcare industry or we're gonna disrupt the whole Fenian signore sir here we're gonna disrupt banking whatever it is and so they'd go through and they do a POC and then they'd say I got this cool thing and I'm gonna make it oh wait nobody wants to play in my sandbox that I'm gonna control and beat the bus with right here's what i'ma try to say here the systems that are in production now we're here talking about rethink trust the systems that are in production now on the hyper ledger technology hyper ability or fabric or sawtooth or what-have-you are the ones that got together and they establish trust not from a technology but by building a consortium of like-minded interested parties all with the goal of saying yeah let's transform our industry together right so we trade it's a classic example they're doing supply chain trade finance I should say again this is a group that got together it's gonna grow but they said no it's not like one of us is going to come in and we're gonna innovate you all out of business said no let's get together and let's innovate let's transform this industry relates make it better and let's all benefit from that another one food trust everybody knows who Walmart is Walmart's huge why can't they just I'm gonna just put a blockchain thing in I'm gonna make all of my suppliers do blockchain the Walmart way well walmart tried that with RFID and it didn't work out so well they learned their lesson Walmart came to IBM and they said we need your help we need to figure out how can we talk to our competitors right how do we talk to our competitors to solve the problem of food trust and but I'm what I mean by food trust is the ability for instance to find out where did this where did this Salmonella and you know chicken come from where did this you know e coli lettuce come from I'm able to trace back where did this sort which farm was this source from so we can find the source of that and fix the problem and so we got them together with the Nestle's and the Tyson's and the dole foods and Unilever's and Kroger's in this case both supply chain partners and competitors because they recognized that we're gonna have to solve this collectively we're against the build trust build a consortium and then the technology is going to do something for us trusted identity another example of secure key in Canada and they had this idea but again they aren't going to be able to sort of provide identity and and sort of capture that whole market the only way it's going to be able to happen is if all the banks in Canada that got together and said yeah this is how we're gonna solve identity in the finance industry in Canada right they had to get all them together and build trust first then the technology is going to help them after the fact so talk about building trust again talk about the theme of my talk which is the whole is greater than the sum of its parts hyper ledger itself from a technology perspective is it's it's a it's an experiment in building trust so that we can actually get together and collaborate as technologists without thinking that the other ones trying to get the other guys right so the first project that we incubated at hyper ledger was hyper ledger fabric this is an IBM contribution you know again as I mentioned we've been working on this in IBM Research we had some technology we wanted to bring it into open source so we incubated this project we called it fabric we actually collaborated with digital assets to sort of build that initial seed of trust if you will to get the community to agree that yeah let's start with this as a as an initial starting point well and then Intel came along in this head hey we got smart people in our research lab - we've got something called sawtooth it was called sawtooth Lake at the time similar again modular composable configurable and they had a very innovative approach to doing consensus that researchers and IBM had not conceived them before they called it proof of elapsed time they'd sort of turn proof of work on its head and said okay so we have these SGX chips these trust and execution environments these enclaves what if we just sort of set a proof of work where you have to compute a hash and spend a whole lot of energy in doing that computation what if you just sort of went to sleep for random period of time wake up win the lottery well that's what they came up with initially so they had some really interesting innovations in Sawtooth initially though these two technologies were sort of competing is weird they didn't trust each other IBM guys they just want to do mainframe the stuff right Intel we just want to do Intel stuff now I'll explain how this story ends well so then we had another project coming in from a company called DTC see they do the trade clearing in the United States securities markets and they said well these technologies are really cool but something that's missing is some ability to sort of go in and inspect and see how high is my block you know how high is my blockchain what's the block height what are the transactions look like what's the throughput how can I sort of visualize what's going on inside this network and so they started building out and they built something called explore that was intended to sort of plug in to either sawtooth their fabric and sort of take a look at what's going on inside and we have another fin tech startup in Japan called cermets ooh along with NTT DATA and some other researchers in Japan bringing a project called Roja it was a another similar you know they've been working on this in the FinTech market in Japan it's written in C++ fàbregas go sawtooth is Python at the time so yet another flavor but it gets better so then IBM had been also working on sort of building out a sort of a front-end development environment for developing applications for hydrology fabric and so IBM contributed hyper ledger composer as another project with the intent that potentially composer could be made to work with sawtooth or Roja then we had some engineers in China who had been working on sort of wanting to have block chains of service deployments to deploy saw to their fabric or Roja or what-have-you and they built an initial project that was focused on deploying networks blockchain is a service networks and they develop something called hyper ledger cello and they incubate it in that so again a little bit more collaborations going on a little bit more focus on how do we help these others now a lot of people would say hyper ledger and a theory ember somehow rather competing with one another I'm here to tell you that's a bunch of in fact we actually tried in early 2016 actually in the summer of 2016 we were working behind the scenes within some people within the etherium community to try to get the ethereum c++ client relicense says apache and bring it to hyper ledger a hyper ledger where everything we're doing in hyper ledger is licensed with apache software license all the ethereum stuff is mostly GPL GPL is like this in the enterprise but we had a company called modaks which had previously been called eros and they had a product called eros dB they renamed Boro so now we have our first etherium based project in hyper ledger am i doing on time good identity so we're chugging along this is about I don't know I think we're pushing towards the end of last year and the sovereign foundation approached us and Evernham and they said we've got this project to do self sovereign identity and we'd like to bring it to hyper ledger well this is great because everything all these all these solutions sawtooth fabric burro Roja their permission blockchain systems they need identity and it's one thing to have a permission system and have some sort of a certificate authority this is the approach that fabric takes for instance but those are our to manage and they are decentralized everybody can have their own but wouldn't it be cool if we actually had total decentralization of identity as well and plug that in to these various other systems so everybody was like oh wow this is cool we like that let's bring that on board and then we had our first stab at interoperability some engineers at ripple had been working on for the past three four years now on something called the inter ledger protocol ILP it's a open standard being developed sort of at the w3c and they said we have a Java implementation we'd love to bring that to hyper ledger and have it develop there so we like the we brought quilt on board and then oops finally we had some engineers in China from Huawei who've been you know working with some clients of theirs in China and elsewhere and a lot of the you know questions were well what's the performance of these platforms how how many you know transactions per second you know what what's the latency and so forth and so they started developing a benchmarking framework that you know could measure performance measure apples on apples between sawtooth and fabric and burrow and so forth and so they proposed to incubate a project called caliper now we had just formed a working group to focus on performance and scale because everybody wants to know this but there are no formal benchmarks for blockchain right there's no you know that it's it's not like there's a spec spec out there for for doing blockchain performance benchmarking and so we said well we need you to get to work with the but with the working group to sort of make sure that we're all singing out of the same hymn book and that we're all on the same page in terms of what are the metrics we're going to be measuring how are those things measured and then we can have a framework that goes off and tests these various platforms so caliper was born so that's our the hyper ledger greenhouse right and this again but we still had the problem that for the most part sawtooth fabric burrow were their independent projects they're a lot there's a lot of similarities between them some differences some innovations the nice thing is they're all licensed under the apache software license which means that the intellectual property that we contribute in is shared by everybody all right this is the this is the positive effect of having open governance and having a sensible IP policy so there's initially there was sort of a congregation of these tool projects that are focusing on and again I'm showing hyper ledger fabric here there's but my point here is that there's sort of like okay so let's help grow this project through other side projects or other tools right let's build it out let's start building a community around that and then late last year just after burro had joined and I said you know the theorem and theorem has been interesting to people in hyper later for a long time most of the platforms that were building are very modular very componentized and the smart contracts are typically pluggable and right now solidity and the follow-on the you know a theory on virtual machine languages are the ones that developers are most familiar with not saying that they're necessarily going to be the ones that everybody ends up with but there's a huge potential to attract developers that have been working in public etherium but then when they go to their CTO or their seaso and they say hey I want to put this project project into production and they get laughed out of the office because are you kidding me no I'm not going to put my production application on a theory of public network and and and be worried about whether the gas that I'm using to feel my smart contract for this for this application could get hacked no I need you to find me an enterprise aetherium thingy and there is an enterprise ethereum association that's working on standards and specs for what that might look like but there and there's a few implementations in fact no long story I won't get into it but we've been trying to bring those in the hyper ledger as well anyway but there's burrow and so we started having some talks between the projects finally we're starting to sort of break out behind our little fiefdom and we're starting to collaborate across projects how can we take the burrow theory on virtual machine component of the package to go package in burro and integrate that into sawtooth and fabric and in fact both we'vewe've sesang successfully work with burro to help them reshape to re you know refactor the go package that is the etherium virtual machine package inside burro to remove the burro isms if you will and make a generally pluggable component that's now i'm delivering in fabric 1.2 a chain code that's our smart contract thingy in fabric a chain code that implements the burro evm so you can run ethereum smart contracts directly on fabric with all the beautiful permissioning and and endorsement policies and all those cool things that we have in fabric and you can do that and use an ethereum smart contract and the same thing with sawtooth Sawtooth is done essentially the same thing and they have project called seth so we're starting to build trust between these projects this is where the magic happens alright this is where we start innovating where we start building on each other's successes rather than trying to compete against one another this is the same thing as when you get industry participants in the same industry getting together and forming a consortium and saying let's solve this problem together right rather than trying to solve it independently and beat each other with it identity i mentioned everybody needs identity and i had i toyed around with his turtle bit this like I was gonna put little hearts and stuff but that's kind of that's not me but everybody loves it identity alright everybody needs identity and so we're looking at this from two perspectives how do we take Indies verifiable claims and use those as identity identity inside fabric and sawtooth and burrow and so forth but we're also looking at now India is sort of two parts there's an underlying they have built their own bespoke distributed ledger in order to record the identity in the blockchain they actually record only the anchor for the identity not the actual identity itself is on the butt chain can you run in D on top of fabric sawtooth burrow Aroha and so we have active engagement with the folk in the indie community on trying to do exactly that because nd thus offering guys they don't care they don't actually want to manage and maintain a blockchain platform they'd love to use somebody else's so what's next so you know I mentioned that you know we've just been having the I don't remember how many we've had now it's about eight maybe hypervisor hack fests over hosted by ABN AMRO just outside the city and and I was just coming to Brian yesterday this one seems special this is the one where we're really starting to get to the point where the engineers are no longer trying to sort of one-up each other they're trying to figure out how do they work together I was talking with one of the engineers from sawtooth yesterday and we're both working on integrating raft based consensus module in fabric and sawtooth why don't we do this together why don't we build one module that we can share rather than each of us build a raft to consensus component that's silly right and and it goes beyond that right so iBM has been working on some zero knowledge proof capabilities that we were going to be adding in the fabric something we call zero knowledge asset transfers and but there's the same zero knowledge proof crypto libraries that we're using are very interesting to the indie guys and so we've been talking with indie and we've been talking thanks thanks we've been talking with the Sawtooth guys as well about sharing this and so there's now a crypto Lib project that's cooking up and likely to happen that'll be this sort of synergy of these these various technologies my point here is that I think we've finally broken through we've started to establish that trust amongst the the development community and we'd love to have more people come and join us right I'm still encouraging you know I every time I see Joe Lube and I say come on down yeah we don't bite right we want to help we want to collaborate we'd love to have you know quorum 2.0 or whatever they're building over there at consensus in hyper ledger right Gartner has said in in many of their analysis that the blockchain for enterprise technology that's going to win doesn't exist today and I think they're right now I think it exists in some form of some combination little you know aspect of all the stuff that's out there today plus some other things some other innovations but I think that innovation is going to happen in hyper editor and and that's my talk that's my story and I'm sticking to it so thank you very much I appreciate your time [Applause]