Rethink Trust 2018: Workshop 2 Blockchain POC Development for the Enterprise

Rethink Trust 2018: Workshop 2 Blockchain POC Development for the Enterprise

Recording: Rethink Trust 2018: Workshop 2 Blockchain POC Development for the Enterprise

press conference it's running always sometime you know all the speeches you know the keynote no matter how many people there are no many no matter what you know whatever happens we are always on time so which is good all right so you are at the workshop where we will be discussing some of the insights that we are bringing from our own practice with blockchain some of the projects that we did we're going to be talking about some of the best practices that we have share some of the processes and also review some of the available platforms for blockchain that are somehow suitable hopefully for Enterprise at least a little bit also in the end of the workshop we will share you share a document with you that basically outlines all of the major blockchain platforms we made it you know by ourselves and so we basically lined out all of the details that you have to know about these platforms to assess the platform whether it's a good fit or not a good fit for a particular project okay so that's that's something you're gonna get hi guys we're informal sitting on the stairs here which is pretty good another thing that I wanted to mention is we are not considered and we are by no means are the smartest guys in a room and so what I what I like about workshops is that it's a collaborative effort right so we are not just giving away some of the information and you're like listening and that's it if you have an opinion if you have a question if you have some you know something to add to what we're saying or maybe like you know you know correct us totally no problem you know the industry is still young and nobody knows everything everybody has their own experiences with blockchain and it's good when we're when when all of us contribute okay as Chris Ferriss told us this morning it's all about like consortiums right when people are coming together in solving problems and not just you know a couple of businesses trying to run their own direction okay so let's see a little bit about us so my name is Nick kirat and who are there for the speech this morning that I give oh okay good so I I won't kind of tell you the same thing but yeah I've been I've been helping quite a few companies apply enabling technologies and those would be both service companies and product companies and I'm currently running blockchain lab with an intellect soft and with an intellect software helping organizations companies organization SMBs and enterprises to approach blockchain in a smart and intelligent way because we've seen that there's a lot of speculation about blockchain there's a lot of there's a lack of good constructive talk about blockchain so everybody is you know that's probably because of the ICO is going right so I SEOs are not interested in talking bad things about blockchain because their token prize will drop and so all of these like Vulcan conferences you go to you know all these ice shows are like you know it's it's you know next big thing exactly it's like you know God given technology never seen before you know and in fact it's not I mean you know so it's it actually emerged from one of the technologies already existed that already existed so that's cool um Tim hey guys I was I wasn't on a stage today but I was the one on the background Oh prepared the the presentation Nick shared with us yeah so basically I know Nick from from very young age and we went through a different companies and we had two two companies founded by out by ourselves so we had a we have a strong product experience and I was a CEO of the products and basically now we we merged one of our product with the intellect soft and now we were running interlocks of blockchain lab Yeah right so a little bit about luxury lab again you know aside from the things that you already hurt so having start-up experience that Tim and I are bringing into the company and then having the company of 350 more people that have existed and have done business with SNPs and enterprises for over 10 years all that blend perfectly matches what blockchain is doing right now because blockchain really misses the the user experience side of things right so the technology in its early days are there right so the technology side of things is good but the user experiences is not as good and so we're kind of bringing some of the startup product experience and Technology experience together in this lab and of course Mir we're helping to find experienced teams to work with enterprises and to work with SMBs to bring about their their DLT projects and the first thing we do is we sit down and figure out whether DLT at all is a good approach or not so we're not in the business of selling blockchain or some you know some other non chain is technologies no matter what's right we we are well experienced in centralized systems and in decentralized systems and so you your customers are coming to us telling their their problem and we're saying okay this is best to be sold through a centralized system and that's you know the stack and or not or you know that's a perfect case for blockchain and then we're kind of advising them on that all right so a little bit about the presentation we're gonna have so we're gonna talk a bit more we'll expand a bit more on the areas of improvement this is a very interesting part of our conversation because I believe and and a team for that matter as well that block chains are not yet there when it comes to enterprise implementations well now that doesn't mean that enterprises should just sit and wait you know two more years and just sit and wait and do nothing and come back and then do something about it in two years or more it means that we have to align our expectations and align our time and what we are doing our priorities so that we're using our our time more efficiently right so we're not running for something impossible but we're we're gonna you know taking one little baby step at a time so we're gonna talk about the the areas of improvement some things that we believe blockchain should add and where it should improve before it it can hit the enterprise market then we're gonna talk about the no sorry it's duplicate to first points anyways so then we're going to talk about blockchain types we're gonna talk about private public and consortium block chains what are the differences between them what pros and cons each one of those types is bringing then we're going to talk about project analysis workshop that's the process that we have internally within blockchain lab and that's how we approach every pretty much every blockchain project that is coming in if we're takin in the project chances are people are somehow uneducated on the blockchain topic right some are more educated some are less educated but we have to kind of bring that to the zero level and then from there make all necessary researches arrange the teams from different angles so that you know we're making a a product that is checked by business analysts that is checked by product guys that are checked from the technology standpoint etc so we're going to give you that process that we're using then we will give you some of the tips how we are deciding on the black blockchain platform and again as we as we spoke with with some of the architecture guys there is to be honest not too wide variety to choose from when it comes to you know choose the platform especially for enterprise and again Chris Ferris touched on that a little bit so we're gonna talk on that and then we will compare we will give you kind of the framework that we were using when we're comparing the platforms available right now and as I said we will share a document with you that we compiled it's a pretty comprehensive table where we have all of the different like rameters for the blockchains that we were looking at and then you're gonna look through like ten or how many do we have there yeah it's more probably more than ten different block chains and you'll see all of the parameters and you know you will have it handy and they will go right into the Q&A but then if you feel like you have a question or you have an addition to what we're saying just raise your hand and we'll talk all right 19 block chains sweet that's good that's good all right let's get going so the areas of improvement I already shared this slide on a talk so we briefly touched the point so I literally when I started talking about this the guy who shows how many minutes I have left he was like five minutes and I wasn't even on the first one so that's why I rushed we can yeah we can talk a little bit more yes I will share the presentation again like I will show the LinkedIn address but it's Nick kuratas and I say ke ke u RIT you can add me in LinkedIn and what I will do I will upload the presentation there along with the links to the outliner ventures slide that I showed and then the the blog post of of Matteo as well so yeah if you add me in LinkedIn then you'll have all of that okay all right let's get going so scalability transaction speed it's a famous one as I said everybody's fighting over it and I would say it's the most popular thing to fix in blockchains nowadays right people recognize that their section per second is by far not there where it should be when gaming companies are coming along they're just laughing there's just laughing and TPS of aetherium and bitcoin they're like guys you know this is this is a joke because they require like sometimes like up to hundreds of thousands of transactions per second in gaming and the latency should be super super fast because all of the idea behind real time gaming deal resolves right if it's not there and so TPS is is a big one and of course a lot of companies are progressing on that one as well but still we have to kind of point this out as one of the things we have to check before going with a with the technology into the enterprise yeah yeah and I would say that this this one is the most covered thing that it's it's been fixed right now among the rest of all yeah so I mean yeah this one is getting a lot of attention so then complex queering and data structures as we know the ledger itself is a pretty simple database right so again you know being strange one yeah so running queries on it is is a hassle right so that's why i we know that hyper ledger fabric right so they're working on integration of post grace into the support of PostgreSQL into hyper ledger fabric which we definitely kind of you know appreciate so and we're looking forward to it so we'll see we'll see what happens from what I know this is not the only project where people are trying to integrate database support into blockchains so this is gonna happen but like blockchain is currently capable of like very simple queries that are showing I don't know like your account balance or something when it comes to you know some some some of the more complex things it's it's it's a hassle then the commutation limitations is is another one I mean enterprises in some cases heavily rely on on computation capacity of the system and obviously blockchain is is not he had to do in a good job team scalability is when it comes to actually scaling your team going after like recruiting people that will be supporting your blockchain and this we will touch base on this as well when we will be talking about the total cost of the ownership for the you know for the system because for enterprise it's just an end-to-end projects they have to know all of the expenses and you know how much does it cost you actually run this thing does it what kind of trade-off is this right so we're getting some of the benefits of the blockchain we're given we're trading off some of the things that are not as good in blockchain and then we'll pain on top right so it should make sense for them and so for a team for teams it's it's still a problem because I mean you would if you search LinkedIn alright or you go to recruiting company and you try to find you know credible developers for a blockchain we're doing that every day right we record in for for ourselves and stuff if you've done that you know and you if you've interviewed real guys or gals you know that it's I mean it's hard to find good people with relevant experience let alone the people with blockchain experience right so that's why it's a problem it's it's the matter of actually creating an ecosystem that brings up the talent educates the talent certifies the talent against um existing standards and you know lets them work in the in an enterprise environment because enterprises are not going to go out there and just interview everybody and like you know have this custom approach or something if they just like okay are you Oracle certified or Salesforce certified yes I am all right you know the interview goes well and then you know you you end up having a job it's not like that right now educationalist so when you search for educational content you may have find some on Coursera I know that consensus is is is starting some of the etherium courses as well but it's again it's not quite there yet but it should alright so let's see what what's the next nine so maintainability again you know fragmented community everybody's making their own blockchain which we partially appreciate because sometimes I mean we're gonna end up having multiple block chains you know that's that's true but when it comes to smart people working on something that doesn't make sense and makes sense only from the standpoint of the token value maybe right it's not a good use case I heard I got from Stanford so III don't remember his title but the guy he runs a big events in Stanford and in Berkeley on chain and his he once emailed me in Alexi and he said uh you know right now the best minds in the world are making the technology and algorithms to make people click on ads more right and how ridiculous is that right so they should be busy doing something more progressive than just making you know people click on ads more and get some profits for some of the you know AB networks the same idea applies here I mean what if we could have at least half of the people or like it at least like some people from the blockchain community focusing on a common standard right be it hyper ledger or some other right some common protocol and then just putting all of the effort in there we would progress really really faster compared to what we are having right now so that's why it's it's it's the problem and I we totally appreciate guys like Chris Farris who is pushing forward this idea of actually uniting the effort and pushing the technology forward instead of like having your own agenda with your enterprise right so that's that's that's something that needs to be done as well system versioning migrations and continuous improvement again you know that's that's a bit of a yeah I can feel it here so so basically what Nick talked before the the most the most of the products they're building on a blockchain is it's on a roof of concept stage or phase and we as as the development company we already released a couple of products to the production and we are in we know the best how how to maintain how to migrate and and basically what what is the cost of ownership and and maintaining this this kind of F products and if you will have time we'll share with you real life applications in what we'd already developed in the end but like just a brief overview so so basically the the second project we worked on was started at 2015 it was before before a theorem launched basically so there was no a theorem and it was NXT based and this this product is in production right now and we couldn't just switch it somehow on my grade or something and it took us to two years to migrate to two etherion afterwards basically so and it was a lot of a lot of interesting things on the way yeah one of them if someone familiar is so in annex T there is something that is triggering an XT to fork to fork it's like it just Forks from time to time and then as we are relying on their event system at some point of time it happens that we we do have a ate like a fork and a - point of truth and there and then it appears that two events are invoked at that time and our system reacted like we didn't know how to react on that one because they like the boast one is truth at the time but they have a different transaction hashes and we had to do a lot of things to to work around it what was private setup though so dynamic configurations is another one that we briefly discussed at the talk as well so right now you've heard about all these Forks and stuff so whenever people want to make any changes to the settings of the blockchain that is obviously recorded in the first block they need to fork the whole blockchain to change this one thing I hate to change you know the the block size the fork the whole thing so that's not cool right and so there are some some of the developers in the area as well where the the settings for the blockchain are not being put in the ledger but somewhere else so that you got actually updated then smart contracts updates the big one you know you've seen hacks you've seen mistakes in smart contracts no matter how you audit your from all contracts and stuff like that yeah chances are you know there's a solidity that is at that times vulnerable to attacks and stuff and then you know there are some people that are writing smart contracts that are not perfect as human beings are not perfect and so you release some code and at some point of time it basically gives you an error and the cost of the error can be huge right so we've the market is has seen some of the cases where like ten million dollars were just locked with a smart contract that just one sells so definitely there should be a a procedure in which or the function in which you can update the smart contracts and right now for instance with aetherium if it's in public network and it's in the ledger forget about it I mean if it's if it hasn't error just forget about it for enterprises is just not not the case they just they won't understand it you just cannot update fix or or improve the code that already working in production right and everybody makes bugs even enterprises [Music] so this is not something that we wanted to cover in this presentation what we can do we can get in contact with some of the engineers that are kind of you know doing the smart contracts and then you they can answer that question I bet there are some right because you know this project that the Tim mentioned it was supported or let's say written and Mick migrated from NXT to aetherium with all of the migration of the keys and you know all of that stuff so there's some people that can yeah so what we definitely have internally so basically this this is the eighth in of infrastructure and because of lack of a proper documentation and you're you're asking these questions just because you don't have an answer right now so basically what we have we have a many checklists that we are checking through each time we are writing a new one basically we are going through most most errors and hacks and then best practices we found yeah and things we've discovered during the audits about the logical issues illogical errors so basically it's a lot of checklists and a lot of testing let's see let's see if we can share those with you whenever you get that to the engineering team okay next one interpretability it's a big one for enterprises obviously you know being able to integrate with legacy systems with the external data sources that they have in place already there's no way you can avoid it so if interoperability with the legacy system is not there you know we're not talking the other thing is cross chain and inter parity obviously we're gonna learn we're gonna end up having multiple chains even with enterprises eventually so they need to know how to talk to each other right and the worst case in our is that we're gonna end up with too many block chains right around and you have to kind of you know connect them all together and it's not we were discussing with with I remember who exactly but you know you're after the talk so the idea of having consortiums is so much better than heaven you know everybody like every two banks or three banks forming their own kind of group and developing their own blockchain for it so that's that all right so cost of ownership okay so we stopped on that one so we'll probably accelerate a little bit so infrastructure obviously the more stuff we put into the block chains on the security side on the robustness side on the performance side it all lays on the shoulders of the infrastructure right of course there are some optimization and stuff like that but in the end infrastructure needs to meet this criteria right so it basically loads up the infrastructure and so the costs may go up pretty significantly and so you can you have to keep track of when you're kind of making an estimate you know for the for for the total cost for a POC that you're gonna run you you have to account for the future loads maybe based on some of the existing system that you're using and and see what kind of cost is gonna cost implications gonna have on an infrastructure the team is wild team is expensive team is expensive it's it's not only hard to find people that are good at what you know I what you need right that blockchains the experience and stuff there they are very expensive to hire I once this received this message through LinkedIn it was some company looking for like a VP or CTO position like something with technology they were like talking about like four or five hundred thousand per year is that it's it's a lot of money it's a lot of money so I'm like you know it's it's a pity Iook I cannot fit fit in that role I wish I could though anyways so I wouldn't say that is that's an average right this is definitely not an average you can check the averages on you know and four different locations on the portals but that's how crazy it gets you know that's how desperate some people are with my new they can just throw money at the problem and I took care of you bye-bye people and make them optimize Facebook ads or something anyway so a new function or an integration so whatever so the cost includes the new stuff that you want to put on top and again you know if you have a team expensive team then the cost that you would normally bear in the enterprise environment would be less than the one you will be kind of bearing when you're dealing with blockchain right for the sheer a reason that you know you have a team of more expensive experts so you have to account for that support and maintenance same thing in higher risks because the technology is I wouldn't say raw it's not raw but it's it needs to be hardened so we need to allow some time you know no matter how many checks and how many audits and how many whatever procedures you have to make sure the technology is nice and stable and stuff like that we need to have we need to allow some time to help to go pass by before you can kind of trust or your CTO can trust that hey this technology is stable and it's good for production right so any kind of you know good CTO will will probably follow that logic so that's that infrastructure you can probably cover them that one I'm doing a lot of talk yeah so basically it's just a matter of things that are are offering you out of the box so basically the big infrastructure providers support of a different block chains because as Nick mentioned we will we'll end up with a lot of block chains and then even if it fits this particular enterprise if you cannot integrate it with the cloud your based on on the big scale you just know go and the same for the software if it's if it's cool technology but it doesn't have a testing software or deployment software or some kind of automation software or frameworks or best practices it it also will remain just just a cool technology or you just have to do it by by yourself by hand security as well yes so basically the the security is a tough one but we just it's it's the the last or almost the last in a list just because we we used to think that blockchain is secured and it would be a not so good to put a security as a first issue but but we know the cases were where some blockchain reveal reveals or releases its own hashing algorithm or some kind of a no house and then it turned out that there is a collisions or something and just just because the blockchain manages a a trust itself it's it's very risky and it's it should be double triple and many times checked before before they release yeah yeah and then security so the thing with the blockchain is when when we are saying that everything is secured we're basically saying that everything is under your control and then when it comes to centralized systems if we want to streamline some kind of a process or or give a UI or UX update we're just releasing some kind of two-factor authentication or vowels or something that just streamlines that gets your account or gets some kind of a token and and then it helps to to automate some kind of steps for you and then on a blockchain it's it's an issue because you just cannot share your keys your keys or accessors and then it's it's even harder to automate anything without like not not taken the keys from you like not not taking the ID accesses so it's just a security security risk and if we want to automate it's always balance between automation and security and when it comes to the blockchain compliance there is a bunch of compliances this is not all of them obviously but you know gdpr and everybody's well aware of that you received emails from them I bet so GDP our user privacy protection heap medical information protection you know PCI DSS that would be payment cards information protection FIS ma that would be government information protection states so there all kinds of you know compliance is that you have to that you have to meet and when it comes to blockchain like if you come to if it comes to like already established enterprises they are saying hey we are like all of this compliant alright we did it for you and everything is fine and enterprises are like ok check right so one of the checks it's there when it comes to blockchain it's still a work in progress it's still work of progress it's it's it's still in its early days when it comes to to the compliance is obviously I mean gdpr is covered right duty bears covered and we know in in which way and again you know Chris touch this a little bit with telling about the references that are in a ledger recording ledger and they're kind of referencing to the real storage of user user data that's how they handle it yeah but that would be it I mean this the list can go on all right so the list can go on of different obstacles that we have before we can have the blockchain ready for the enterprise don't be freaking out is it's only progress this is all very big money involved in this whoever gets first you know whoever kind of you know solves this problem he's getting a you know big chunk of benefit obviously in and he's making money so there's a lot of smart B I wish there were more but there is a lot of smart people that are working on every single one of these and yeah we as a community as an engineering community we have to join the process not necessarily having our own project started and just like nobody understands the nothing about it but you know we do and so we will yeah you know we'll do something that will disrupt the whole industry that's not happening we have to join forces like to join forces all of the stuff there is really disruptive was because of the joint forces of a lot of smart people right and it's not happening overnight none of that even Bitcoin yeah and one more thing about the compliance is the even if some sun block chain will support all of this at some point and then after release or after all of the improvements and compliance is done any new compliance will be released then it will be the same problem for them and then it just returns to the maintainability point where we we have to have a mechanisms or methods how we can update or migrate or reconfigure this kind of a complex complex systems so we're going into the blockchain types really quickly three blocks and types Tim yeah so this this section is basically just to align our knowledge and just to introduce the the the types of a blockchain we are working with so basically the first one is a public block chains we're all know about them and the main benefits of them is basically the topic security because it's it's permissionless and this proof-of-work consensuses is very very strong and because of that you can you can trust this this system and then the second value is a value transfer this is something was introduced by a Bitcoin we can you can transfer transfer value through the internet and the the last and major benefit is a global scale and just just to mention that this is this one is just a brief things that we are envisioning as a as a top value for this change okay so this was a public law change then private blockchains how it works and how how we worked after public blockchain was released so basically we just taken taken public blockchain and then using like rolling in it out in our private infrastructure and then using this this approach this blockchain of approach for our internal needs and then it basically means that some of the benefits from the publicness is its me is like dismissed or but there is still a LP value in this kind of a change and and basically the the first value that we see is the internal security because the data there is imputable and even if if it just under your control or under control of your organization it's still immutable and it's still secured from internal attacks or internal changes still there is accountability for a lot of organizations this is a huge benefit because every every step in history is saved to the blockchain and then then the dose resistance is also a good one yeah and and the last one is basically a consortium block chains and we're working with this one too and what what it introduced to us is is basically a new way of connecting different organizations and how was was before is it was done through the api's and it and the problem with the api's is that you have to kind of uncover a part of your infrastructure uncover a part of your of your data or data structures and then you it just it just not worthy enough to to do this for for just work and connecting to your competitor and then blockchain would this consortium thing released a new way how you can collaborate how you can share and stay safe within within this the same network yes so the benefits is Universal API and multi organizational support nice all right so that's that's for the four different types of block chains I bet this is a something would that would be worth going through afterwards as well as you're developing you know or the downloading the this slides from LinkedIn but yeah let's let's jump right into the project analysis workshop so this is the the very briefly this is the process that we're going through with every blockchain project that we're taking on it's basically a some kind of kind of evolved feature analysis workshop that you know organizations like ours the companies like ours would normally do we used to so this is going to be upgraded version for blockchain off the ones that we use for for both startups and enterprises because they would come and they would need some of the consulting kind of a part for the product right so the researchers of some kind you know the competitive landscape check you know to see what what kind of technologies and what kind of approaches competitors are doing and things like that so just briefly what we have here so this is kind of the phases that a normal POC is going through we have the project analysis or the yeah pert analysis workshop where we have the discovery so we're we're looking at okay what the client has in mind already sometimes the client has a lot right so they're you know very well educated in blockchain sometimes they have very few thoughts about what they want to build but they still want to invest in and explore the technology and stuff like that so that's why we're kind of discovering what they have already then we're performing the functional and tech analysis so from the standpoint of the features from the standpoint of the tech stack that they imagined probably or some of their technical stuff and then we're making a technical assessment so what kind of technology limitations are there what kind of environments this project is gonna be running in and they were obviously making a project plan into the rest so this is just briefly we'll go into details in just a moment so then we we initiate the project so after the workshop we basically get all of the deliverables ready and ideally after the workshop the enterprise or any kind of size of the enterprise they should be in the place where they have all of the information about the first version of the POC they want to develop what kind of technology stack they want in what kind of prioritization for the features they want and what kind of platform they're basing in you know right and then and then some of the economical stuff especially you know for the guys that are using token economy for their kind of you know internal purposes or external purposes you know we're kind of integrated that integrated that in as well and some of the guys even need some external help with jurisdictions and things like that when it comes to you know the companies that are running for eyesores the legit one's legit ones there are a lot of scam out there careful so yeah so that's we initiated the project we develop it basically launch it you know run it acceptance testing and then launch it into the production and into the and to the moon as they say so this is how it looks like from the timeline perspective it's normally a three to four week exercise that we obviously are charging for because we're taking some of the best people engaged in this this is super important to have the best experienced you like to have all of the best practices involved in this and this is the steps that we're going through so the first week is week is the knowledge transfer like the introduction whatever a client has on his in his hands or whatever stakeholders he can provide us access to whatever it's a internal project we're talking to the employees whatever it's a external project we're talking to the guys that are on the market sometimes we would contact the competitors as well and see you know where they're standing but for the second week it's normal so and the first week is an off-site thing right so we normally have like calls with a client and things like that multiple calls during the week and then for the second week that's normally an on-site thing and we've learned that it's pretty much impossible or it's at least it's a very complex thing to do to actually have a productive conversation and a work if you're not sitting you know around the same table and all of the technical means help write all of the whiteboards and you know that that you know have shared access and the video and stuff like that but it's not the same I think you'll agree if you ever worked with with remote teams yeah and the thing that on the on the third week we are convenient to a lot of deliverables for the clients and the the number is varies but usually there is like this is the the next slides but but we need to basically utilize this first and second week on a maximum level just to be able to produce everything we need to to compile a tech stack to compile a team timeline and all the data flows just to have enough data for for this kind of activity right and then yeah yeah yes so that would be in the week three yes so that's one of the deliverables we're going to share it as well so I'm gonna go first this slide is just just the first point of the puris slide yeah this three weeks is is just one point on the previous slide right right so all of these exercise this three weeks this is basically that big blue point over there right so and we're kind of detailing this out so for the second week like in the end what it what it is it's basically sitting down with the client and having all necessary guys on our side that would cover all of the necessary expertise for the project to succeed and that normally takes client as a business owner who presumably understand his business really well and we do not understand that business as well as he does and so he's bringing you know the decision makers on his side from our side we're bringing business analysts that you know have worked with products it's basically you know like I would I would call them startup guys you know but for the enterprise that that have like intrapreneurs kind of a deal right that understand the product they understand you apps they understand how that and how that corresponds to the technical side of things then we obviously have blockchain guys you know blockchain architect who can actually look at all of these you know like fantasies of the business people and you say hey dudes like this is technologically this is not possible or something yeah and the second week is a best point when you have to understand the decline no knowledge about the blockchain and how it works and how he think it works because when it happens on the third week and it happens actually we are we were in the trouble you know like if if if client is thinking too highly about block chaining he's like you know we're asking like hey how are we gonna how are you gonna so you have an ear see Tony token running on on public etherium network how are you gonna kind of migrate that to over to the hyper ledger fabric that you're you know and and the client is like but that's blockchain you know like you're like no no no no there's technical limitations to that so yeah yeah and yeah you know did the thing with who the utility tokens and the the best way how how a lot of guys explaining why they need the utility is basically will pay fees for some kind of operations there or we'll use it for enabling some kind of features and then when it comes to to project to the project architecture and we're saying how so you're already on a public ethereal network and you want to pay with these tokens and also you you are requested like you request and you have a thousand transactions and transactions per second how you how you envisioned and even to to achieve it with would they have having the the public looking on the Syrian blockchain right so that's that's all specifics we can talk about it afterwards but like the general idea is that we have all of the kind of expertise covered around the same table and we're discussing that and we're actually forming a definition of an MVP where prior to that prioritizing the features we're making all of the different researchers if you need k KY caml we go ahead and make a comprehensive research about those which one will fit best if they need some you know like cash in cash out options if they need some economy talk an economy will look at the similar similar models if they need like a stable token whatever we are researching some of the existing use cases of the failed or you know successful ones for that for that specific case so then obviously we're looking at the technical side of things you know our technical guys are commend or the providing feedback on whether it's feasible or not sometimes technical guys will give us some of the ideas as well it's not even it wasn't imagine the bull by business guys but he's like hey you know there's a lightning Network and we can you know take take advantage of that so so it's it's a very very intense process normally happens either on the client site or on our site in one of the offices that we have and then the third week as a off-site week where the team is basically a rabbit ripping everything up and getting the deliverables ready and we I mean we have the slides for the for every deliverable and everything I decided to to skip that just because it's like six or seven slides I mean it will kill it a lot of time we have it oh okay yeah okay so we actually have it we have it as a as a summary so this is the deliverables that we have so it's normally like user story map user flow diagrams basically you know like how how customer is actually interacting with the system who's the persona that is using the system and all of that like stuff that you're normally using for your products as well yeah and the required one is the data and control flow diagrams and this this one basically answering a lot of questions about how what components should we use and what the potential security risks well how how blockchain actually fits in the product yeah what is master so it's it's also important because of the gdpr and it's it's not completed sentence yeah it should it should say master data sets location yeah yeah some location I think it explains it so the feature set the priority is a prioritized list of features are gonna be there a PFC definition technical approach basically explaining what kind of platform we're gonna use high level architecture data flow diagrams and stuff like that project plan and that's where you know where slw is getting kind of detailed out we're basically trying to make this as friendly as possible for the customer so that the only thing he needs to actually go ahead with the development is just you know sign it right and so we're getting this s well W ready and we're getting the timelines we're showing him the ramp up period for the team like actual ramp up period with having in mind some of the candidates already and the project managed approach communic approach oh that's good stuff so that's that's that you want to fill in on these ones right no it's fine yeah that's a good question so do you have a number I would say like more what is that like more than a half more than half yes so workshop like when you are running a workshop and you're charging for it and it's normal like you know like 25 to 40 thousand dollars and so with that kind of money giving up for you know for the researches and to make things kind of ready for that that's normally the guy that is pretty serious and enough write about the about the project and so that's why the they if they say see value and there's definitely value I mean sorry for boasting but like there's different value and then they're like hey it's a no-brainer you know we loved it you know we love working with you your your expertise is there and blah blah blah so yeah let's let's just sign so I would say like well over half of them yeah and the other half in in the most cases is basically uncovering something new to them some something about regulations or or constraints and then they just look request some time to to fix this issues and then come back and then proceed with the technology yeah so for instance yeah that's one of the kind of fresh cases so we've done a workshop a really good one so I mean basically just laid out like the whole model how the how the product should function made all of the researches but then it turned out there there's some Licensing in states in every state you got to get a license for that activity and so for them like taking like 50 licenses in every state that wasn't kind of a ridiculous thing to do and that's why they wanted to pivot to some other jurisdictions like you know Asia and stuff like that so that's why they took their time to kind of you know do the all the legal hassle and everything that is connected on their side to the to the pivot so yeah that's why you know some of you I mean once we developed this mobile proximity platform really nice one I think it was like developed on multi chain a really nice product you know from the from all the ten points from yeah so and then we got a really nice you acts there you know super nice experience nice beckon and everything but it was taking out from the App Store just because they release some kind of regulation there some a rule okay if there was not there was no regulation for that and then they just you know did taking taking the app out so sometimes that happens as well so it's yeah depends yeah absolutely yeah so I would really advise to have them in the workshop right so in the workshop we should cover all of the stakeholders from both sides right from our side we're covering you know every aspect of the you know development side of things but then from the enterprise side you have to you have to check that legal is fine all right finance is fine accounting is fine security is fine so that's why you know having representatives at least go through what whatever we are planning for is a must if you can get them in the workshop and if I mean if it's feasible that's good if not then you're running through the workshop kind of you know consulting with them in the meanwhile and then getting them the deliverables and they just review the deliverables and either approve it or not yeah yeah a lot of things yeah so basically it's heavily depends on the setup and if it's if it can be if it can be totally done with just a block chain without any interconnections or it is a lot of a lot more a lot easier to do and if it's connecting to some to your to your infrastructure and then you you have to have automation in place then a lot of things are are considered in a security and so basically it is it depends on the interconnections I give you like a an example right I like talking examples I'll try to make it as NDA as possible all right so let's pretend there's a client that is applying for a banking license right so it's it's a merchant bank and so obviously applying for the banking license will require having core banking services that require you're getting a banking license of the the authority that is issuing the bacon banking license they have checklist that you have to kind of check check check to be able to actually get that license and all of these checks well not all of them but part of these checks they're there concerning the product that you're going to be delivering right and so you know let's assume that we already had that experience of actually taking that checklist bringing in into the workshop and basically having all of these checks checked shipping that back to the authority and then having them kind of you know approve it or or having some comments so when it comes to the enterprise you have to understand the stakeholders what what this POC is gonna touch right is it like a totally autonomous thing right or is going to be integrated within the existing legacy system right and then you are either have more freedom with that or less freedom with that the more integrating integrated you are within your current system the less freedom you will have and the more kind of you know checks and then approvals you will have to get we are fine with both scenarios right we're fine kind of you know helping you go through that as soon as you understand that the trade-off of the time that you're putting into this really worth the result that you're getting in the end is that answering your question or you can clarify it let's talk afterwards yeah and I can I can add something on top of it so we have a practice when so it's it's not connected to the to the workshop but we do have a practice of requesting or requesting a hacking service to ensure that everything is okay and security on each on each release we have in the white hat it's white yeah on each release and for each entry point applications api's and yeah yeah yep yeah nice yeah that's a very good feeling thanks thanks definitely yeah if you guys have any like you know it additions or like some comments or something like that throw them in throw that it's a workshop we're sitting on unofficial you know the stairs no yes oh I can I can give the microphone yeah can you repeat the what she said do you mean oh yes better so the thing is what what I saw there was actually more a methodology of an IT project itself it starts with with analyzing stakeholder analysis technical functional but what we recommend is that because it's a new technology is that you show it immediately as soon as possible not first all powerpoints or Word documents or those kind of things but show it in those workshops seeing that actually what is under the hood but also what is actually the interface because for a lot of clients is that blockchain is it is a magic bullet a silver bullet you can fly to the moon but it's so important that you can see okay this is actually what's under the hood so show it on screen and not only on their own power point actually thank you much will rush it will rush it real quick so let's see deciding the black jumper you want to go through quickly okay yes so basically this is a different stages and different properties properties we are looking at when choosing a different different platform and basically it started with with the type of a blockchain whether we need to to have something very custom and then go with the framework or we can can go with the with the private oriented blockchain like parody or it can be or it is public blockchain like like a theorem yeah and then and then we're we just looking if we need permission levels what kind of anonymity level we need to have in place and this is this is like a general general thing that that is showing us the the group of a blockchains we are looking at and then basically the the three other s is more detailed and the the second stage is is basically what is important for us to be able to deliver and it's it's basically what languages do this just blockchain supports what SDKs do they have what to said do they have the community and the document documentation state whether we can utilize all of that to deliver or not yeah so this is ease of use and then technical and security properties is basically block time settlement time required because some clients are okay if it takes one minute to - for the settlement and some are not and then what is the most important yeah second settlement time with performance and then yeah if it's if it's BFT or not if if finality is is immediate or or not yeah and the last stage is basically the yeah yeah so basically we were looking at if if it's something connected to to a a real value or a money or something we're looking at if if the particular blockchain has some kind of a workarounds that are there can be quantum resistant so basically using the hash function that is quantum resistant or encryption metal Duras there is Computers right yeah yeah so there is some that is claiming that they are a quantum resistance resistant yeah yeah and the last one is basically the the business properties do they have decentralized exchange can it support micro transactions what is transaction costs can we issue custom assets and is it is custom or most master coin required in this particular case yeah okay and really quickly less slide because I think everybody's keen to hear the talk of Kristin from a coin base I think she'll be giving a lot of interesting information so blockchain platform comparisons so we've got this documents for you so yeah well yeah I mean you can take a picture it's the latest version we're gonna you know I bet it's real quick but it's basically the the table that we made for you guys to look at one glance out all of these different like block chains and what they do what kind of properties they have if the property is that that Tim just shared you know these these are in here and you have these country organization with white like blue and green basically representing different kind of you know generations of a blockchain right so we're gonna share that in the LinkedIn as well so if you want to have a table like this you know editable not editable but like you can copy stuff from there so it's not like a the the picture you know it just adds us either of us on LinkedIn and we will post that in a timeline in our timeline in LinkedIn so yeah just make sure you find it yeah yeah well it's yeah just Edison LinkedIn and we'll do it okay so that would be it I don't think we have any more questions you or what you can do you can just leave or kind of stay after the workshop is done and then talk to us personally we'll be able to answer your questions right all right thank you very much guys who've been awesome audience have a good rest of the day [Applause]